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Poster: RiverRat1492 Date: Apr 20, 2011 4:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Bob is NOT Pig

Hey, recently someone posted a link to 4/19/82.
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1982-04-19.mtx.tobin.89314.sbeok.flac16

I'm not a hater of 80s and 90s like some, but find myself hanging in the early days. Anyway, I took a trip to Baltimore 1982. Enjoyed the show for the most part, but then I got to Good Lovin'. Just as with the era, I don't hate Bob like some here, but wow that was a tough listen. If I had been in the same room as the computer, I would have stopped the pain. Song was fine, but his...I don't know "rant" was just hard to listen to. For the most part, I liked Pigpen's, (sometimes they were tedious,) but some of them were really funny and quite memorable.

My question to the folks here, because I enjoy the conversation and thoughts (most)of those here, 1.what do you think of Pig's rants in, say, Good Lovin'? What do you think of Bob's?

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Apr 20, 2011 11:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: What's all this PIG Lovin' ?

Now, wait a minute ! ....

I might be the lone voice for Bob here. I agree that 82 posted by RR is a tough listen fo' sho'. Bob's vocals are strained, it's a terrible outing. But, if you went to a show from 77-79 you might have been treated to a great Bertha>Good Lovin' set opener, and that's pure rock 'n roll heaven. Note that these did NOT have a Bob rant - typicallly only 5-6 minutes, and cleanly played, no vamping. Good Lovin is NOT a good song for jamming.

Here's one favorite Bertha>Good Lovin: http://www.archive.org/details/gd1978-04-19.sbd.gans.miller.9121.shnf

I like this version for the lovely Jerry solo, esp. his second pass on GL - it soars and floats over the crowd, and you can feel the energy in the room if your volume is up. It builds to a nice crescendo. Just straight up, no frills, no ranting Bob, no bullshit.

I'm with SDH - after a couple of Pig rants, I start hitting FF till I start hearing music again. I like Pig OK, but I'll come for the music, like Next Time Your see Me or The Rub... note that Cliff's example highlights the instrumental breaks, not Pig. I do agree with him though - if you pass up Lovelights or GL completely - there's gold in them hills. I'll just pass up on the pork.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 20, 2011 12:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What's all this PIG Lovin' ?

You're not *quite* the lone voice. I do prefer Pig's but I don't think all of Bobby's are so terrible, they're just different. I agree in general with what seems to be the majority opinion here - you kind of had to be there to want more than an occasional dose of "Good Lovin'" regardless of whether it's Pig or Bob.

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Poster: bkidwell Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Pigpen was a real master of interacting with the crowd, and the band in his era did a good job backing him up with the kind of comping and riffs to make his schtick work. I always took Bob's raps to be a tribute to Pig, more or less, and found them endearing but never very effective.

Even with Pig though, for me its a bit of a "guess you had to be there" phenomena. As a previous poster commented, even though the feel and timing of Pig's raps was great, they weren't really as spontaneous as they seem when you first hear them. Pig had a stock of ideas and phrases and leaned on them pretty heavily.

There is always a bit of controversy between the viewpoints that "Pig was the heart and soul of the band, it was never the same without him" and "Pig didn't grow as a musician, he was holding the band back." On the opposite end of the question, some people think "Bobby the rock star" provided needed energy and others see it just as cheesy. I'm a fan personally, although partly that is because of the humor factor.

On the subject of raps, I've always thought Brent's late era "Blow Away"s are amazing. They often have a searing emotional urgency that puts them in a totally different category.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 20, 2011 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Well good grief he couldn't grow as a musician, he DIED.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Apr 20, 2011 5:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

It is not my favorite song either and if you held a gun to my head and asked me i would rather listen to, I would probably pick a Bob version over a Pig version. I agree with adks that the early versions were long and never seemed to get anywhere and as much as I love Pig when he is doing blues covers or a song like Two Souls, I find his raps are like a wine that did not age well or is simply well beyond its prime. Which is why i can also only take Lovelight in small doses. Pocket Pool? Last time i heard anyone use that term, i was probably playing pocket pool in my dungarees.

I thought some of the Bertha>Good Lovin' pairings in the late '70s were pretty good and do love the GL>La Bamba>GL that comes out of the monster Morning Dew on 9-18-87. Yeah Jerry kind of screws up the lyrics but it is clear that everyone in the Garden, including the band is having fun. I guess thats why i like the Bob versions better, they are fun. Nothing wrong with a little fun right?

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Poster: ducats Date: Apr 20, 2011 10:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

the original leader of the band could rant like no other

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 20, 2011 5:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

If I had to pick sides, I suppose I might go with Pig, but to be honest I don't like either "rants". Regardless of who it was, it always seem way to formulaic. "Oh, here's Good Lovin', can't wait for the Pig rap. Gee, you think he might whip out a "Get yo' hands out yo' pockets" tonight? Hope so.". Once, great. Twice, amusing. Three times, wearing thin. Four times, skip.

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Poster: waynecs Date: Apr 20, 2011 8:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

The first concert I ever attended was The Rascals a favorite of mine before I'd even heard of the Dead.I prefer to pretend the GD never even tried Good Lovin.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 20, 2011 10:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Hey Wayne...been a while; had to chime in that my kids gave me a lot of crap on that one. They had a hits of the Rascals, and it really convinced them that the DEAD just should never have touched it!

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

I vote for the Pigman, but more for the badass intensity they could summon in that era ! And the jamming they could get going , say on the "Rockin' on the Rhein" show . It is ironic , that my favorite ones are almost at the end of PP's stand with the band . When he was inspired, and the band and him were synched , it could be great . But yes, as with "Lovelight", a lot of times , it would have been fun in person, but audio only it can seem sort of tiresome .
Bob's GL's : sort of like them early on, but as time goes on, and it becomes the closer ; it started to take on this sort of yuppie "Jimmy Buffet", feel to it . And the raps are just silly .

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Poster: Zaorish Date: Apr 20, 2011 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

I usually just drag through that song too, no matter who's playing.

However, there is *One* awesome version. It's the one featured on the album known as "Ladies and Gentlemen..." and I belive it's from April 1971. Not only does it morph into a sweet, melodious thematic jam, but Pigpen delivers this very interesting, philosophical, motivational rant about jersey cows and refrigerator repair servicemen. That one I don't get tired of :)

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

I think the raps from either Pig or Bobby are strictly a "had to be there" live experience that just don't translate well to playbacks years or decades later. I agree with Elbow's comment about them being like wines that don't age well. Much as I love pig his juvenile "pocket pool/get together and fuck" rants can be tedious even when I'm in the best of moods (and like nails on a chalkboard when I'm not).

Now that said, I really got tired of people bitching about "Rock Star Bobby" back in the 80s. Sometimes he was a little over the top, but I appreciated that he was rocking out with as much energy as he could muster- some nights (I'm mainly talking '83-'86), this was a lot more than we got from the bloated, gray-skinned Jerry, who only woke up from his nap once or twice to briefly study his shoelaces.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Apr 20, 2011 12:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

You can easily predict what I'll say...
I find Bob's versions unlistenable, and love Pig's versions.
I'm not that big a fan of the song - in early versions, it's usually one where I feel like skipping the first few minutes and the drum solo (however, CD tracks are rarely set up to do that!).
But the jamming, oh! It went through vast changes, from the short & sharp '69 jams, to the rock & roll '70 juggernauts, to the expansive r&b-riff/rapping '71 classics. And the Europe '72 versions are just extraordinary - I have to sigh at someone who'd be listening to a Europe '72 show, come across Good Lovin', and say, "Ecch, gotta skip this one." (But then again, I feel the same about a number of tunes as well...)
Pig's Good Lovin' raps were more varied than his Lovelight raps...now Lovelight does get tiresome in '69/70, Pigpen always had pretty much the same thing to say and he says it at great length. In Good Lovin', though, he's often telling a funny story - far more amusing than the Yellow Dog Story, at any rate.
And there's a lot of variety in the jams. Just for instance, check out the 4/25/71 version (with one of Pig's best raps and amazing music, on the L&G release) and the 4/26/71 version (just a Hard to Handle-style jam, no rap) - quite different from each other.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Allow me to continue with the negativity...I defn prefer a Pig Era version, BUT skip both. For reasons nicely outlined above.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 20, 2011 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Also forgot to add:

Bob's version of Good Loving always conjured visions of Wayne Newton without the saliva problem. Bob needed to leave the Holiday Inn's Velvet Lounge version at home.

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2011-04-20 14:05:22

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Apr 20, 2011 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

OMG that's funny.

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Poster: snori Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Likewise, Side 3 of Live Dead is almost pristeen.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Apr 21, 2011 2:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig (Live/Dead)

LOL, I was thinking that, too! While reading these various Pig/GL/Lovelight threads, I thought back to "back in the day" and how that side was the one I didn't really get into on Live Dead.

I've actually come to appreciate Pig more since finding the archives and having free-n-easy access to a wealth of early-era stuff. But I think Pig and what he did benefits a LOT from the whole context of the show, including song placement. Live Dead, as sacred as it may be to DHs, didn't actually provide that the way all the recordings we have access to now do. Not even close.

Really, I heard very little Pig until finding the archives.
I used to have a certain amount of tapes years ago (though wasn't a serious collector), but they'd tend to be heavy on my own "era" and the years just prior -- so, no Pig on those tapes. Loved the early-era albums, but (other than Live Dead) there was nothing Piggish that stood out to me.

The Live Dead Lovelight ... well, it's kinda like, "Would you skip through the archives just specifically looking for Lovelights? Would you sample a show and just sample two or three tunes including the Lovelight?" Well, no. While I can get into Lovelight in the right circumstances, I'm not going to LOOK for it. That side of Live Dead was basically, "OK, now I'm just gonna do Lovelight." So, nah. I'd pass. It was pretty much an untouched side!!!

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Poster: sjanderson82 Date: Apr 20, 2011 6:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

i recently came to the conclusion that i just straight up don't care about the song "good lovin" and skip every version no matter who is singing but i find weir bringing back pigpen songs to be quite cheesy.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Apr 20, 2011 2:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Good Lovin' is much like Hard To Handle, in that the GD cover versions pale in comparison the original versions. I'm sure, if I were to spend the time searching ,or ask for forum recommendations, I could find an excellent Grateful Dead Good Lovin'. It would still not measure up the The Young Rascals(as they were still known in 1966 when GL was their #1 hit)version.

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Apr 20, 2011 5:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

In all honesty I almost always skip over Good Lovin' no matter what the era is. Its a good song but I just never cared to hear the Grateful Dead play it.

In answer to your question though I would definitely take Pig over Bob on any of the tunes like that. His "rants" as you describe them just fit much better in that style of song than Bob's. His combined attitude and singing style just fit that genre better. Bobby just ends up sounding cheesy when he does that kind of stuff. I mean I get a kick out of his wails in Truckin' and Estimated but for a song like Good Lovin' it's more like a "what the hell is he doing?" reaction.

Back to my original point of skipping Good Lovin'...the reason I skip it in the early days is because a lot of them go on forever with not a lot happening. There is only so long I can take simple bluesy vamping with Pig (or Bob) wailing before I get bored. I'm sure my thoughts would be a little different if I had been lucky enough to catch shows with Pig but just listening to it doesn't do it for me.

I need to point out though that I LOVE PIGPEN. Mr. Charlie, Next Time You See Me, Two Souls in Communion and Chinatown Shuffle are a few of my favorite songs that the Dead ever played.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Apr 20, 2011 8:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

Pig-era Good Lovins take this in a landslide. But for me it's not primarily about the rap, although Pig still wins hands down. GL's in the Pig era were always stellar jams. I skip TO Good Lovin, not over it.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Apr 20, 2011 8:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

I couldn't agree more!

Anyone who foolishly skips over early era Lovelights and Good Lovin's because of Pig's tedious raps is missing a hell of alot of stellar jamming.

Just one of many examples is the Good Lovin' from Newcastle on 4/11/72, the highlight of which is not provided by Pig but in two terrific instrumental breaks. I can't wait until September..

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1972-04-11.sbd.jackson.smith.94377.sbeok.flac16

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Apr 20, 2011 7:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

: Bob is NOT Pig<<<< he's not????

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Apr 20, 2011 10:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bob is NOT Pig

I'm in the minority. I like Bob's. "me and you and good lovin too" from that 1987 MSG show that was mentioned is one of my favorite rants of his.